In this episode, we discuss the insightful journey through transformation and change within organizations, with Fredrick Marin, the Senior Director for Change Management at the University of Virginia. From confronting the difficult truths to leveraging the potential of Human Resources, we explore pivotal moments and mindsets shaping the industry. We discuss embracing change, building trust, and navigating the intricate dynamics between culture and engagement in the workplace. For more engaging episodes and insightful discussions visit: https://www.amnhealthcare.com/amn-insights/elevate-care-podcast/
In this episode, we discuss the insightful journey through transformation and change within organizations, with Fredrick Marin, the Senior Director for Change Management at the University of Virginia. From confronting the difficult truths to leveraging the potential of Human Resources, we explore pivotal moments and mindsets shaping the industry. We discuss embracing change, building trust, and navigating the intricate dynamics between culture and engagement in the workplace.
For more engaging episodes and insightful discussions visit: https://www.amnhealthcare.com/amn-insights/elevate-care-podcast/
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TIMESTAMPS
(00:22) Introduction
(05:24) Your Baby Is Ugly
(11:35) Harnessing the Power of People
(22:01) Leaning into Change
(38:06) Placing Trust in the Workplace
(49:15) Culture vs. Engagement
(54:17) Fredrick’s Mindset Challenge
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ABOUT THE GUEST
Fredrick Martin is the Sr. Director for Change Management at the University of Virginia. He specializes in driving organizational transformation and nurturing positive organizational culture. He crafts and steers change management strategies across the Academic Division and Health System, with an emphasized role in rejuvenating Human Resources practices.
Boasting over 15 years of expertise, Fredrick is renowned for orchestrating pivotal business and cultural shifts in intricate, matrixed settings. A cornerstone of his experience is his tenure as the Master Change Agent for Ascension Health, the U.S.'s largest non-profit, faith-based healthcare conglomerate. Here, amidst a vast network of 2600+ care sites, 151 hospitals, and a workforce exceeding 130,000, Fredrick innovatively developed and applied change management plans in alignment with both regional and national missions.
Fredrick's leadership has been pivotal in metamorphosing organizational cultures, enhancing patient accessibility, championing patient-centric care, and elevating the overall customer experience. Prior to his immersion in healthcare, he ventured into the global arena of offshore outsourcing. He was instrumental in the initiation and governance of call centers spread across diverse international landscapes. His extensive background also envelops facets of organizational development, quality assurance, and operations.
He holds a BS and an MBA from the University of Phoenix. Further augmenting his academic accomplishments, Fredrick acquired an Executive Master’s in Healthcare Leadership from Cornell University. He is also distinguished as a certified Master Change Agent.
Connect with Fredrick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fredrickjmartin/
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Welcome to Elevate Care, the show where healthcare professionals, visionaries, and thought leaders come together to explore the limitless possibilities of healthcare innovation. I am your host, Jamie Dubke. Welcome to a journey where innovation meets humanity. Now let's dive into the fascinating journey of a seasoned professional who has dedicated his career to driving change and transformation. Meet Frederick Martin, the Senior Director for Enterprise Change Management at the University of Virginia. Frederick is an accomplished leader who specializes in driving organizational transformation and fostering a positive organizational culture. With over 15 years of expertise, Frederick has a proven track record of crafting and implementing effective change management strategies across the academic division and health system. He is pivotal in revitalizing human resources practices, contributing to the institution's overall success. Frederick's reputation as a change management expert is well-deserved with a distinguished career that includes serving as the master change agent for Ascension Health. In this role, he successfully implemented change management plans within a vast network of over 2,600 care sites, 151 hospitals, and a workforce exceeding 130,000 team members. Frederick's contributions were instrumental in leading transformative change in organizational culture, improved patient accessibility, a commitment to patient-centric care, and an elevated customer experience. Frederick holds a bachelor's of science and an MBA from the University of Phoenix, as well as an executive masters in healthcare leadership from Cornell University. As if that was not enough, Frederick is distinguished as a certified master change agent. With a wealth of experience and a proven ability to drive transformative change, Frederick is a true asset to the University of Virginia, the field of change management, and now today on our podcast. Wow, Frederick, welcome to the show. No, thank you for having me. It's always pretty exciting and daunting when you hear someone talk about you. And, you know, we all go through life, we all go through our careers, and many of us have an enormous amount of accomplishments, but we often don't really kind of take that step back to really think about the impact that we're having. And so as you were reading the bio, I was thinking about, wow, who is this person? This is great. I would love to meet him. I would love to meet him and talk to him. And I was like, oh, that's me. But no, thank you very much. I'm excited to be here and thank you for the time today on your platform. Oh my gosh. Frederick, I'm really excited. for everyone to get to hear your genius today. Before we dive in and having you solve all of our first world problems when it comes to change, our listeners are really inspired by personal journeys of our guests. And so I'd love for you to tell everyone about what you're passionate about and the purpose that fuels your work. So why do you do what you do? Yeah, no, thank you for that. I am truly passionate about, while it may sound cliche, but it's truly how I live my life personally and professionally is leaving people in places better than I found them. I found myself throughout my career, when I look back, I'm either being asked to do two things, either build something that didn't exist or help turn around an organization that needed to change or transform. And so throughout my career, I find myself always thinking through, how can I improve the lives of the employees and the team members in which work with this side of organization? But more importantly, how can we improve the lives of the communities that we serve? And so this is truly something that is not only to me, but I'm passionate about and how I approach and read everything that I do within an organization and outside of an organization. Thank you for sharing that. I think we talk, we don't talk enough about people's legacy. And so I love the fact that you're like, I want to leave this world a better place. I can't think of a better mission that you wake up to every day. Yeah. How about, tell me some fun facts about your family and then I also want you to share with us about your book, Your Baby is Ugly. Cause that sounds like the most amazing title ever. Yeah, no, thank you for that. Family wise, I will say that I am the proud father of two amazing, amazing daughters who also found themselves in healthcare. Not by my doing. My oldest daughter works for the VA hospital in Dallas, Texas and my youngest daughter. uh, works for a physical therapy company. Both are aspiring to complete their PhDs. Um, it should be completed about two years from now. So from a family aspect, I am, uh, I have, uh, sibling, my sister lives in Atlanta, Georgia, fun facts about me personally. I love to cook. Cooking is truly my, my decompression. Um, some people garden and some people do other things. So for me being able to. in the week on a Friday night with going to the store and getting some great ingredients and making some great food and just start relaxing and listening to some jazz is my safe space and my place of harmonization. And so in my third life or third career, I will be somewhere cooking for a living and giving food away simply for the joy of it. So tell us about your book, Your Baby is Ugly. So I know that this is a major passion project for you. Yeah, this has been a major passion project for me for the last, I'll say just about three years now that I started working on and having as a concept prior to the pandemic. And let me first say, this is not about calling babies ugly and about calling children ugly. It is more about as I found myself throughout my career, sitting around the board table, sitting around executive rooms and hearing people discuss and talk about initiatives or projects. And somewhere along the way, someone will say, well, this is my baby and I can't change it, or they can't do something different with it. Which led me to the place to say one day in a meeting, you know me long and intimate, you know I'm a very bold and passionate person to say, well, I'm sorry, but your baby is ugly. And here is why it is, and really being able to. unfold and really peel back the layers of what the true reality is of a situation, to really have leaders understand and take to heart that just because something is yours doesn't mean it can't evolve and can't change anymore and we can't hold things so closely to ourselves that we don't allow room for growth, exploration, and transformation. So that's sort of the premise of the book and of all the things I've learned throughout my career from an organizational change and transformation standpoint. It is a book that really takes you behind the curtain. Organizational Change and Transformation talks about all the things that leaders and most individuals don't want to talk about that really hold an organization back and prohibit down from changing. I'm sharing those things and those tidbits and tactics and strategies and tools to help people rethink and reimagine how they approach organizational transformation and change. Oh man, I can't wait to read that book. I'm sure it's going to be just like the FYI for all HR professionals. That's kind of like our leadership Bible, right? Yes. So one of the things, Frederick, though, that I've experienced too, even as we've looked at organizational changes or any time you have any type of resistance to change, there's this threat or this kind of unconsidered thought, like it's just this theory of loss, right? And it's that... that pride of ownership, the loss that, man, my idea wasn't as great as I thought, or who am I now? We as leaders sometimes get so connected to that idea that it becomes our identity. As you're thinking about that book, what are some of the things or the strategies that you can maybe even help our listeners think about when they think about how to reframe that lost scenario or lessen that identity sting maybe so much? Yeah, sure. No, great question. I think one of the things an individual has to begin with is starting from a place of curiosity. Starting from a place of curiosity is much more profound than starting from a place of not being able to or from a place of loss. And here's the thing. People often say that change is hard. And I always say to them that no, change is not hard. People make change hard because if I walk up to an individual and say, here's 100 bucks. and I give them that hundred and I give them that hundred dollars, most likely they're going to be happy and not resist that change. That's a change. So it's all about reframing it and how we look at the situation itself, because within every situation, while it may seem like a loss there, you have to look out, you have to look for the opportunity within that. So what I always advise leaders is a couple of things, starting from a place of what don't you know about a thing, starting from a place, starting from a place of curiosity. leaving room for discovery so therefore you can learn and understand what you don't know and allow yourself to kind of go on this journey of not only self-discovery but discovery for the organization too as well. Part two of that is also really removing yourself from the situation and that's super hard for leaders to do because we do become so attached to our work, to the things we do. We want to be passionate about our work. We want to be passionate about the initiatives and the projects that we work on. But we also have to be able to say, how do I, how do I take myself out of this through the aspect of who am I doing this for? What's the community that I'm serving? Who are the individuals that I'm serving? What do they need and look, and look at it through the lens of, of who we're serving versus through the lens of what is it that I want out of this thing? And I think that really opens up a new way of not only reframing whatever it is that the individual is thinking about. but also reframing the solutions that we may come up with because we're no longer designing for ourselves, we're truly designing for the community and the people that we're impacting, that we come in contact with every day. And so those are some of the tools and tactics and strategies that I provide to leaders and share with leaders, as well as really being able to understand and look at blind spots, because we all have them. We all have our own blind spots. We all, there are always things that people don't see. My... my superpower and my seat of change management is being able to really look at blind spots and see things that others may not see because I'm really looking at things from a holistic panoramic view and not just that one single thing. So being able to not only identify it, call it for what it is, and then understanding the connection that thing may have to the larger sum is truly important. So I always encourage you to look at things that they may not think are directly impacting. that change or that initiative or themselves and think about how does that impact what's happening, whether it be your decision-making process or the actual solution itself. Oh my gosh, that was so good. I loved though, when you talked about kind of the reframing because even me, I've selfishly done that too. We were starting to write something and you're just like really passionate about and you're forgetting like, but who am I sitting in front of? Who needs to hear it? Who's gonna touch it and have to live through it? That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. And I want to kind of stay on this theme about kind of reframing about talking to the audience and thinking about people, because I know you're passionate about that human-centered approach when it comes to all things change and transformation. So tell me, how do you help leaders think about how to individually harness the power of their people or becoming the curators of their own story? Yeah, no, great question. I think it's through a couple of ways. First and foremost, leaders really have to know their organization. And what I mean by know their organization, it is really knowing the people, but also more importantly, knowing the culture and the environmental conditions that live inside your organizations and how people are experiencing the work. And so as we move into this new realm, and it's not really new, it's been around forever, but now... As a result of the pandemic, everyone's really focused on, what's the employee experience? How are people experiencing work? And I always reframe in this as the employee experience is how people are truly experiencing the work in the work environment. So really being able to know and understand your organization is step one in that process. For me, the second part is also, why are we here? And it's not about us. So how do we understand why are we here? Why are we here? within our roles as leaders, within our roles as practitioners in serving the organization and serving the community, and really grounding yourself back in that. I remember one project that I was working on, specifically around talent acquisition, and this was taking place over the pandemic, and really helping our leaders and helping our HR folks and our managers really reframe the why around the recruitment process and talent acquisition to take it take it away from it's not about the recruitment person, it's not about the manager, it's about the candidate. So how do we craft the candidate experience and have all of our decisions be around the idea of, and the passion around, we wanna create the best in class candidate experience for our candidates from the time they think about hiring, think about applying to University of Virginia or UVA Health, all the way through their day, all the way through their day one. How do we design our world to fit just that and not make it about hiring manager, the recruitment person, not making about us, but truly making it about what we're trying, the community that we serve. And thirdly, leaders asking the question, who do we need to become? I don't think enough leaders really ask the question around who do we need to become. Most organizations, most institutions, most leaders always focus on, or typically focus on who we are today, who I am now. and thinking about how are we great in all things today, which is awesome, but it doesn't really account for who do we need to become in order to serve the people that we need to serve, not only today, but also of the future. So really thinking about who do we need to become in order to be that best in class employer of choice. That's another one. That's another. uh, air cold sort of phrase, this being, this being highly used around a lot of organizations, I guarantee you, if you go out and you look at 30 job descriptions, there will always be, and now you will find a bullet point or a sentence that talks about being the best, uh, best in class, best place to work organization, but what does that really mean? And how do we, what do we need to do to become that is that much more important? You're not necessarily relying on who we are today. And that's That is so brilliant because when you think about getting people on that journey and keeping people engaged, I have also found that through my clients' interactions, a lot of that resistance is felt because we paint this really beautiful picture of who we want to become, but then we also kind of start to, or stop reminding people about who we still are, right? Like, who are we, right? We are best in class and here's what that means. So I love how you connected the dots. because that's really what helps kind of stop that resistance and allow people to come on board change along with just helping them kind of take in some of that ego. And you've mentioned that before in some of our conversations, kind of that institutional ego that kind of exists and that too big to fail mantra. And I think COVID just kind of like reset expectations for everybody on that, right? So we know big. Banks are too big to fail and now hospitals are really starting to have to understand what that means for them as well. No, no, you're absolutely right. And even before we before we sort of said way to that, one of the other things is, is I am a huge proponent advocate for and especially in the space of change, doing things with and not for people. We often, you know, as leaders, we sit around the room, we come up with these, you know, these great strategies or these great these great initiatives, but we don't we never involved the people. who are actually going to execute on these things and actually bring these things to life. So I am always encouraged to tell leaders that operate from a place of doing things with people and not for them, because that's when you get buy-in, that's when you get individuals really wanting to be a part of something bigger, when they can see themselves in it, and they also have a hand in creating that. You have a greater chance of success by doing that, other than showing up on Monday morning and saying, Here's who we are today, here's who we're gonna be tomorrow. Now go out and do this thing. And not really bring people along that journey with you. Just that doesn't feel right. And that's where you often get this resistance from individuals. So doing things with and not for people, I couldn't advocate more for that. But yeah, so this idea of being too big to fail, I also equate that to being too great to change or transform. You have... great healthcare institutions, great academic institutions that have tremendous legacies and have found great success in the things that they've done throughout decades of your time. And often I'll sit around and leaders will discuss and have the sentiment of if our throughput is amazing, our patient experience is great, and we're having over thousands of students apply to our school every year, and our graduation rate is amazing, what do we need to change? Why do we need to change or transform? And so, and often I tell them that, A, are we measuring all the things that we can and should be measuring as a point of success? Or are we relying on the things that we measured in the past and using that as our continued measure of success? What else should we be measuring to equate for success as we move forward? And two, which is truly the most important thing is, and if you have it, If you haven't figured this out now, I'm really scared and worried for you, but that no, no institution, no organization, no place, no, no job is without change in transformation now and beyond change is happening at a, at a super accelerated pace that will continue to be that way. And so when organizations don't start from a place of what can we do differently and how can we change and transform you find, you find yourself being you were probably finding yourself ending up on what I call the wrong side of transformation. When you look up, and I tell this joke, I tell this jokingly a little bit tongue in cheek, you're finding yourself saying, how did all the healthcare end up working for Jeff Bezos and Amazon when we didn't change anything over time? That's right. It's the Blackberry story. Right. It's the Blackberry story. It's the Codex story. We all know these stories. There are all these. There's all these. these points of evidence that lead to this, but often it's hard for an organization. We often, organizations find themselves, well, that's not us. That will never happen to us. That happens to everyone else. So really being able to shed that cloak of we're too great to transform, to understand how do you begin to meet the needs and demands of not only the people today, but the future only positions an organization better for success going on. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I also have been advocating with all of our leaders too, when you think about that mantra of it's usually the five or six people in the room trying to make the decisions for the thousands below. And my thought process has been, isn't it easier if we take those thousands of people and try to convince the five to six versus the other way around? And it really creates that cycle of engagement and buy-in. And then you have this co-creation where you have people who are wanting to see it be successful and will fight to see it be successful. Right. Yeah. No, think about it. I love to cook. I love learning to cook from my mother and grandmother and there was nothing better during that time to where you're in the kitchen. And something as simple as if they're making a cake, you get a chance to stir the batter. You get a chance to ice the cake and all these other things. So there's this. there is this joy of having this co-creation at the end of it. And when you know you had it handed, oh, I made that, or I did that thing. And that cake somehow just tastes so much better. That dish tastes so much more richer, because you know you've had your hand in it. And you have a greater sense of pride behind that, too. And so organizations and change and organizations and initiatives are no different than that. The more we co-create, the better off. uh, will be the better opportunity. These solutions will come up with. Awesome. Well, and you also got the option to lick the spoon. If you were the one who was working, right? So like there's bonus. There's advantage to doing that. That's the bonus. Yeah, that's the bonus. You get the best lick the spoon. Absolutely. So let's continue on this because I think this is so it is so important right now because organizations are really They have a lot of great ideas. They're investing a ton of money in all kinds of technology transformations. I mean, everyone's transitioning either into some new HRAS system, like a workday, or even epic transitions. And I really want us to think about why some of those changes or transformations feel so hard, or why they're not sticking, right? And then kind of the stress, and that falls on leadership, along with HR, on to figure it out or solve it. I want us to think about how do you help organizations authentically back into change and leaving behind the constraints of who they think they are? Yeah, no, great. But another great question. I think it starts first with, I always tell organizations and tell leaders that if you think that technology is going to solve your problem, you truly don't understand your problem. Because technology is not... the solver of the problem, the technology is the enabler for what it is that you want to achieve. So if an organization thinks that we go out and now everybody's going out and buying AI tools. If you think that you're gonna go out and buy an AI tool in somehow, some way, your organization is going to magically become something else because you have this new tool, that's, it's probably unlikely that is going to happen. So what leaders and organizations have to really think about is going back to What is the people impact that we're looking for? And what impact do the people have on this change or transformation and how do they fit in there? And then being able to say, how does the technology enable the people to do what we need them to do, whether it is align them to have full transparency, allowing them to be able to access things seamlessly, being able to... look at dashboards of reports, but into where they could manage and lead better because they have things at their fingertips. So really being focused on what experience are we looking for the technology to bring to the table for the people is where I lead individuals to then less focused on the technology itself. I always say technology should not be the star of the show of your transformation, the people should be. And if technology, if you're hanging your hat on we're going out and we're bringing in Workday, we're bringing in Epic, we're bringing in this big technology. And then later on down the line you say, oh, well, now let me see how the people fit into this. It's just, it doesn't make for a successful transformation and a successful amount of change. And so that's one way. The other thing that I often see organizations do is, and especially when you think about these new systems like Workday, like Epic, is they often go through the process of saying, how can we take what we've done for the past 20 or 30 years and put it and shove it into this new system? And you end up with business processes that are inefficient, that aren't streamlined, and often what I call a very expensive paperweight, because you're not getting what you need out of the tool itself because you haven't designed it in a way that it needs to be versus starting. starting with a blank sheet of paper and saying, what's the experience that we want to create for the end user and the end user not only being the employee, but also the customer or the patient on the other end, to say, how can we design this in a way that is user friendly, accessible for all, and allows the individual to get what they need at the point of contact at the right time, versus how do I take everything that we've done for the last 30 years and make it working here? The same way you can't take an eight track and put it on Spotify and say, play. it just doesn't work. You have to be able to take the music and reformat it in a way to where it now works on a new platform. And so getting leaders and organizations to really sort of let go of these last 30 years of business processes that probably haven't served as well and look at things in a new way is what I often do. And one of the catchphrases, and I'm sure Any of your listeners that are listening to this podcast now, I can guarantee at some point in their career, and probably even yesterday, they heard the term, well, we can't change this because it's too complex. It's too complex. We can't change this. We can't change this thing because it's too complex. And my rebuttal to that is always, is it too complex or is it inefficient? Because those are very two different things. Complexity and inefficiencies are very two different things. Neurosurgery. It's complex. That's complex. Having an efficient valet service at the hospital is not complex. It's probably designed inefficiently. And so how do we break down the barriers between what's truly complex versus what's inefficient is also a way to help get leaders and organizations to move forward, because we're often high behind the veil of complexity as a rationale to not do something or change something. Oh my gosh, I just took a ton of notes, and I hope everyone else is too. Tech is not always the solve. I think that's huge. And then even like, what experience are we solving for? And I think your analogy, and when you talked about that business process optimization, that is exactly what happens. It happens everywhere. Like anytime you're taking your old systems, and this is really prevalent in the TA process. And then even when we think about like, and AI is going to be a solver of it. And it's like, no, AI is going to enable a ton of different options and opportunities. But unless you have people that know how to prompt it or know how to operationalize it or optimize it, it's a waste of money. So it's about what that change looks like. And I loved though how you just followed that up. And it kind of comes full circle again when we talk about that pride of ownership, right? Because those I mean, they're rooted in like very formalized structures and there's a pride along with that. And so that becomes a blind spot for organizations and for leaders. So tell us a little bit about how you help leaders recognize their own blind spots and especially when it comes from an organization where you now have maybe like six or seven decision makers or stakeholders that then have to approve those changes. Sure. No, I am. I really help leaders understand their blind spots, A, by being very transparent about them. I always operate from a place of not fear. And I know that's tough for a lot of leaders and a lot of individuals within our professional realms that is that fear of if I say this or if I do this thing, what will happen? And so I tend to not operate from that space. And it doesn't mean that I conduct myself as a bull in the china shop. But I'm also very clear and very honest and about the things that I see also back those things up and with three things as facts, data and evidence. So what are the facts? What's the evidence and what's the data to support these findings or this theory? And now let's have a discussion and a conversation around those things and not necessarily around the feeling of those things or how something is perceived or what may be. a myth around the organization itself. So how do we ground ourselves in facts, evidence, and data to really hone that conversation around that particular blind spot? One of the things that I remember early on, and this was probably, maybe during a pandemic and a little bit after, as organizations, and we were no stranger to, we're really looking about looking at how do we recruit individuals to Charlottesville, Virginia. And I remember being in a meeting with a number of leaders and the sense is and the understanding around the room was, well, why would anybody not want to be in Charlottesville, Virginia? We're a university, we're UVA health, we're University of Virginia, we're all things possible. So why would anyone not want to come and join us? And one of the things that I had to quite boldly say is that Everyone's experience at UVA Health, at University of Virginia is not the same, and your experience will not be the same as everyone else's experience. We also have to be very realistic about how the how Charlottesville is perceived in the world. The world sees Charlottesville very different from 2017 than what they did before. So these are the things that are truly take truly running in the back of people's mind when they think about do I want to take a job at this institution or this health system? And what do I know about Charles Gobi? Yes, it has great mountains. Yes, it has great views and wineries. But there's also a place of community in which people are looking to be a part of. And we have to truly ask ourselves, is this a community that embraces each and every individual from every walk of life? And can they find themselves here and be happy? And that's the ultimate question that we have to look at and not just look at it from our own point of view. Well, I'd love to be here, so why would anyone else not want to be here? And so those are some of the blind spots and, you know, and we had the facts, the evidence and the, you know, and the data to, to also support that conversation, which allowed us to really change, change the narrative and change the conversation around why would anyone not want to be here to what do we need to do to ensure that we are, that we are inviting people into a welcoming and opening. place and community as much as we possibly can because you can only control what you can control. Absolutely. Actually, Frederick, I was talking to a client last week in a major health system in New York and we were talking about the three different experiences that a candidate goes through. You have that amazing TA experience with the recruiter, with the hiring managers, and it looks like sunshine, snow cones, rainbows, and bunnies. Then they come to orientation, which also may look amazing. because they get to come in, and especially if they're normally on the nights, then they come during the day and they get to hang out with all the cool kids during the day. And then they actually go to the floor and they are not met with the same experience or the same people which are experiencing burnout or they're just exhausted. And so those three different experiences really create that cognitive dissonance, which is alluding to a lot of the attrition issues and concerns of some of the hospitals. And so- It's really about looking as an organization and understanding what are my blind spots. Yes, if I'm sitting in a room having this conversation, are the same people who are on the floor who also have to kind of sell the job or be part of that community, are they involved? Or do they care about that experience of that other individual? Because they're barely hanging on themselves, right? Like we're asking our clinicians to do a lot. So I really love and appreciate how you talked about blind spots and really. how we as leaders have to be able to be open to that. How do you then get someone who thinks, okay, cool, I'm ready for change, I think I want this disruption, but then how do you actually get them to kind of think through that process of actually making that happen, right? Because there's a lot of organizations that love the advantages of disruption, but don't necessarily want to be disrupted. Yeah, no, great. Another great question, I think, you're right. Everybody, every organization, feels like they love disruption, they love change, it wants to transform, but then when the rubber meets the proverbial road, they're not there. So I always start from a place of what's your culture? And you have to start from what is the actual culture of your organization, because if you're touting yourself as we're a culture of innovation, no red tape, fast pace, fast moving, but you have to, but you're... you have a 30 step or pool process to buy a stapler, the two, those two, those two things don't, don't match. So really starting with the culture and asking yourself, do I have the right culture to achieve the transformation or the change that I'm seeking to for the future? Because if you, while as well as, while it's very cliche and it's the old term that culture eats strategy for lunch, it is still very, very true because if your culture does not match the strategy in which you're trying to incorporate, you will always find yourselves in spaces of resistance and not being able to pull that thing off and wondering why it's so hard. So being able to truly assess your culture, understand your culture, and see how your culture either aligns and support the initiative in which you're trying to move forward, or what cultural barriers or what cultural artifacts, as I call them, could be acting as barriers that will prohibit you from being able to achieve the things that you want to do. And this is a tough spot for organizations and for leaders because often enough, when you really talk about and get down to the nitty-gritty of your culture, it's not always pretty. It's not always the things in which, especially as you move up into the C-suite in the proverbial top floors of organizations, may not have a line of sight to what's actually happening. in that day-to-day environment and what culture is living with the organization. And so really, truly understanding your culture and see if you have any misalignment or alignment or gaps or opportunities to either sure certain things up or really have some tough conversations around certain things allows you to really have a, to really build your change plan and your change, your transformation strategy in a much more effective way. And also being able to understand that change does not happen in a linear fashion. One of the things that I've seen, especially over the past five years or so, is that organizations, and especially as we find ourselves in the pandemic and all organizations trying to figure out what do I do? We got to change. We got to do something different. They went out and they said, let's take five people and send them to a change management class and then we'll have these individuals come back and drive all of the change within our organization. So you have individuals coming back. all well intended, all breaking minds, thinking that now that I have this model, that if I follow these steps, each one at a time, then somehow it is gonna spit out this perfect amount of change. And change is just not, it just doesn't happen that way. And so really, so what I always encourage and advocate for is that change. You can't treat change like Grumman silverware, where you pull out. on holidays, it's a special occasion. So you pull that change book off the shelf once or twice a year and say, oh, let me go through this model and see have I created awareness? Do I need to do knowledge? And kind of think about it that way versus how do we incorporate change in our DNA, i.e. the culture of our organization? So we're always thinking about change and transformation in a very fluid way to where it's just a part of who we are and what we do and not this thing. that we pull off the shelf and we're ready to launch a big initiative or project. And so that's where I really help leaders of the organizations get a line to get really crystal clear on what's going to either propel your transformation or really going to hold you back as you try to do this new thing. I love how you talked about the ad car model because that's exactly usually what happens, right? You find your change champions, it's a good maybe 10% of your org, and you're like, now go spread that, right? But then we forget that there is now a new common language that has to be established, right? So when you're talking about awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, and then the reinforcement of that, all of that has major implications into making change happen. And it usually starts at the leadership level, right? With the sponsorship of your executives in those spaces. Man. Like, I just took a ton of notes again. Thank you. One of the other questions that popped up in my mind, too, as you were talking, Frederick, it sounded like there's almost this need or reminder that, do you trust your people when it comes to your culture? And I'm battling this right now with our clients when we talk about kind of the future of work. And do you bring people back into the office versus keeping them at home? What kind of hybrid model does that look like? And then that word fairness comes into play. So there's so many complexities to that. Talk to me a little bit about what it means to trust your people. Yeah, meaning to trust your people is huge. And one of the things that I often tell leaders that talk to organizations about is the ability to not do what is easy versus doing what is best. and especially as it relates to future of work as an example. So it's easy to say, well, let's just bring everybody back. Let's just bring everybody back. And somehow, some way that's going to fix everything or something that we don't have to worry about versus saying, what's the best thing to do at this time? And the best thing to do may be figuring out what this hybrid look like. What does remote look like? But what comes along with that is a high level of intentionality. And that's the missing piece where leaders and organizations often find themselves reverting back to or wanting to revert back to the way things were is because now in this new space, intentionality is that much more important and that much more effective in the things that we have to do. We were having those same conversations around future work. And we would often find ourselves in conversations around, well, we have to bring people back. One of the words that was often tossed around is productivity. How do we know that people are being productive? And I will always say, well, how do our leaders know that their people are being productive today? Because if they're measuring productivity by being able to walk down the hall and seeing Frederick or Jane in their cube, that's not being productive. That just means being present. And they're not the same. So how do we either redefine? or in a lot of cases define what productivity is and what that looks like. And also what's the intentionality that we have to have around that. The same way with we have to have a sense of community, we have to have a sense of culture. And the idea of only being able to create that is by being in person was also a myth that needed to be bussed across our organization is that culture and if your culture stems on well, Every morning I see Frederick in the break room and over our coffee, we have a chat about our weekend. That's not culture, that's a conversation other than having the intentionality of saying, how do I ensure that our colleagues and our coworkers are connecting with each other in meaningful ways, whether they're in the office or in other states? That requires a large amount of... of intentionality always use Peloton as a great example for that. Peloton was a thing, obviously, that people got on their bikes over the pandemic. And because there was nowhere else to go, nothing else to do. And after and after talking to a lot of people about this, the number one thing they would say was that they love the bike. That's the obvious they love the KB7. What I found second was that people often talked about the communities in which they found within the Peloton network. And Peloton was very intentional about. being able to create spaces where people can find their own tribe or their own place for people to go and love, whether it is, I love Latin music, so I wanna write to Latin music, or I love rock or hip hop, or I'm at this stage. So being able to find that sense of community where people supported you and cheered you on was all done with intentionality. So I often tell people you have to be very, very intentional about what it is that we are trying to create. throughout this process. Yeah. I also love that because no one gets to be their best selves by themselves. I've said that I think for a long time now and it's truly that building that sense of community. And I think that's when you think about organizations that do that well, the military, firefighters, police officers, hospitalists, like clinicians. I mean, we know how to bring people together, right? So it's just reminding people of... what those team dynamics are and creating the space for that to occur naturally in those kind of moments that matter. No, thank you for sharing that. The easy versus best, I think that's still a fight and a conversation that will be happening in boardrooms forever. But if we can continue to make that less and less and get people more involved in that, I think that's really where we start to move the needle. Now I want to go back to this joy and this purpose. And I think this is a unique challenge in healthcare. because when you think about the profession as a whole, people come into healthcare because they usually are servants in their heart, right? They come, they show up serving. And COVID was another perfect example of people who were being selfless, nurses and doctors who were working round the clock, staying away from their families for weeks at a time to keep everybody as safe as possible. How can organizations authentically and intentionally design such spaces for people? which fosters engagement and satisfaction because we know at the heart of that, joy and purpose have to be in there. No, awesome, awesome question. I think there are a couple of ways. I think that organizations not only have to be purposeful and intentional about the spaces they create, but also it goes back to what I was saying before around you have to really look at your culture. You have to look at your culture first. And what is the culture that people are experiencing at work? Because your culture would drive what I call your environmental conditions. So here are the conditions in which people are operating each and every day, which then drives your engagement. Organizations often think that, well, let's do an engagement survey. We'll do this engagement survey, and it will tell us how people feel about our organization. But the engagement survey is only a snapshot. in time, but what it doesn't do is get to the underlying of the experience and the culture that lives within an organization. So really being able to be intentional and purposeful about the culture that you're trying to create. In this space of how do we allow individuals, whether you're a clinician or whether you're in IT or whatever it may be, how do we allow people to come to our workplaces and do the work that they love to do and desire to do in a way that they feel like they're contributing to a greater good, they're finding themselves where their work that they're doing is rewarding and that they're creating something way beyond themselves and they can be themselves and show up as their best selves at work each and every day. And again, that goes back to really being able to understand your culture and understand the work that has taken place and how it is being done and then being able to craft and design your organization. around those things and not the other way around. I think that is, for me, that is the ultimate recipe for how do you allow people, especially in healthcare, allowing clinicians to get back to, I wanna come in and take care of my patients and ensure that I can provide the best care to my patients each and every day, but more importantly, I wanna be able to do that, and I also wanna be able to go home at night and spend time with my family. or go home at night and relax and go home at night and do these other things. So how do you be able to do that? And you find a lot of health organizations, or I've seen a few health organizations, really start to message and brand themselves around that in the sense of being able to make it honest and transparent and say, well, we may not pay you the most, but what we will give you is we'll allow you to come into a place where you will be trusted. You will be... that you will also be recognized, but more importantly, you'll be able to do the things that you love to do each and every day, ground and give you your life back. And that speaks volumes to people now, because now we're in this place where others are understanding and myself included in a sense of that while work is purposeful and work is important, that it is not the end all be all. I wanna have the most, what I call harmonized life and not boundless, because I feel like boundless feels like you're giving up something. But being, but this creating this harmony in my life to where I'm experiencing all things invest in the best possible ways and organizations that can, that can figure that out are the ones that will be successful in having those higher traction rates, having those higher retention rates and less turnover, because they're very additional and creating those and creating those environments. One thing that I will say, if leaders take nothing else away from this, our time is, and this is very prevalent, not only in healthcare, but also in academia, is that we often say, well, what is everybody else doing? Or we compare ourselves to everyone else. Well, what is Mayo Clinic doing? What is Cleveland Clinic doing? What is Kaiser doing? Well, what is Cornell doing? What is Harvard doing? What are these? And I go back, I always start with, well, who do we want to be? What do we want to do? How do we want to serve our community and not getting to this measuring contest between what we want to try and be? Mary O'Claire, we want to try and be Cleveland Clinic or more. How can we be the best version of ourselves for our patients, for our institution, for our students, and for our community that we can be? Because that same thing may not be the same thing that other institutions or other healthcare systems are doing. And as long as we keep trying to sort of chase the proverbial, what is everyone else doing, and not focusing on how do we become the best versions of ourselves for ourselves and for each other? you may not find the solutions that you really want to be able to do that. And so I really challenge leaders to really don't focus so much on, benchmarking and having aspirations are all wonderful, but go back to asking yourselves, who are we? And more importantly, who do we wanna be for the people that we serve inside and outside of this institution and our team walls? Absolutely. And Teddy Roosevelt always talked about the idol of comparison is the thief of joy. And so I love, I love how you talked about that. Cause I think a lot of our, a lot of our hospitals right now are saying, well, what was pre COVID or what were we before COVID? And it's like, this is what we are now. Frederick, that was absolutely beautiful. One of the things I want you to touch on a little bit about too, is cause you talked about measurement and we know in order for change to happen, you have to measure it, so it's vital and KPIs are a big deal. But when we think about measuring, we also need to start thinking about how you measure behaviors. So can you share some insights in the difference between culture and engagement? Sure. Culture and engagement are very, very different. So engagement, and I'll start with engagement first. So engagement typically measures a snapshot in time and how people are, are they fully engaged with the organization. So you'll see questions. One of the metrics that often. comes up as your net promoter score. So will you refer your family or friend to this organization as a place to work? And so using that as a net promoter score for engagement, it will often ask questions around, is your leader present? Do you feel like you can go and talk to your leader or leadership is being transparent? So really snapshot in time type questions or metrics will allow you, which is important, it allows you to really to look at some of the aspects that may be showing up in your organization. So think of them as the symptoms of a call and putting in healthcare terms. So I think of your engagement survey as here are the symptoms that are popping up in your organization. But when you think about the culture, it gets down to, well, how did you get this call? Where did this call actually come from? What is it? Is it a bacterial or an viral infection that's coming up? So your culture is measured by looking at how is the actual work getting done? How are people experiencing work? So things that may seem simple or not so not to others as if I want to present a new idea to our leadership team, how does that make me feel? Do I feel nervous? Do I feel anxious? Am I excited? or do I feel like my idea is going to get, not get the attention that it deserves? And so it is that a part of our culture. So do we have a culture of people not feeling they're in a safe space to share ideas because whenever people bring ideas for that either not taken seriously or not given support that they need. So really asking the questions about the how things are taking place within an organization. gets, you know, gets actus under that. If someone, something as simple as how are, how are, how do decisions that people don't agree upon, how are they handled? That's your culture. The proverbial meeting after the meeting. Do people feel as if they went in there in the meeting and they're talking about a sticky subject that they could actually speak out, voice their opinion, feel like they're in a safe space and not feel like they're retaliating is. are people as you look around the room, everyone's saying, yes, but in your heart of hearts, you know there has to be an objection somewhere. But then when you walk out of the room, you see three people down the hall standing in the corner, having that meeting about the meeting. They're talking about that thing that they felt like they could not share in the meeting amongst themselves. So these are the things that are living your DNA of an organization. And so you have to take cultural assessment. There are a couple of... cultural assessments that I've used and seen in the past. You have some as simple as, if you've ever read, there's a great book called The Culture Code by Daniel Colleen. So there's a, he has a culture called quiz that takes you to a series of 10 questions that are very simple, that really give you an understanding too. There's another organization called Human Synergistics that has a world-class cultural assessments, which gets after things as far as adversarial accounts, being complimentary of each other. How do you bureaucracy and measuring all these things on a very deep level that allow you to really understand the culture that is living with within your organization. And so being brave enough to really assess your culture is that we'll always see as the first step in any initiative for leaders and institutions. Wow. Thank you for sharing with us some of those new tools, because I think a lot of times we do, we think about engagement as this once a year, or we do the poll surveys and it's like then it becomes a bias because you've surveyed people too many times and there's not been enough time to see action. And so really having a plan and tools that help us understand not only like what is the goal and the measurement, but what are the behaviors that help us lead to that expectation. Because we think, oh my gosh, I just need a high engagement score. But it's... But if you're a trading people and the people who are taking those surveys are brand new, then what kind of data is it really? So it's like having accurate, reliable data is also imperative into making sure you have great results. My gosh, Frederick, I feel like we could talk for like another four hours. But I do want to ask one just kind of thought or challenge. You kind of challenged us a little bit earlier too, but if you could challenge our audience to take one specific action. or adopt a mindset shift based on our conversation today, what would that challenge be? I will say I would challenge the audience to, in their next meeting, in their next project or next initiative, to challenge themselves to start with the question of what don't I know? Start from a place of what don't you know about a thing or a situation and allow room for discovery and curiosity. and not lean on what you've learned and what you know from past experiences and learnings and coming in already with a solution in mind and sort of relying on that and start from a place of what don't you know and let that lean you into discovery, curiosity, and take that journey is what I will encourage and challenge folks to do. I love that. I think that's incredibly powerful. And when you come with a heart posture that says, Hey, I'm willing to be humble here. I'm willing to listen. I really do want to know what I don't know. So help me. I think that would make a massive change. Yeah. Think about it. I mean, you're going to think about the power of a room of executives sitting around talking about a topic or an initiative or whatever it may be. And someone being brave enough to say, what don't we know about? this thing, what don't we know? And really having leaders be authentic and having leaders be to put their egos aside and put themselves aside and not feel like I have to have all the answers because I'm the EVP or I'm the SVP or I'm the CEO director or I'm the chief of this. And really start from a place of what don't I know? Think of the, just think of the power and the discovery that lives in that space that allows for... for really true when people talk about creating a safe space for folks and for leaders, think about the power that lives within that space. And I would just highly encourage people to do that. And allow that space to take place. That's huge. Allowing people to get to show up as their authentic self. I think that's what we all desire and dream for in our organization. So thank you so much, Frederick, for your time, for your brilliance. I can't wait for your book. Your baby is ugly to come out. I'm gonna buy it. I can't wait. And we'll have you back on too, because you're gonna have to tell us all about all the strategies that are in it. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us today on Elevate Care. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you found this podcast valuable, please consider subscribing, liking, and leaving us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback means the world to us and helps us to reach even more listeners just like you. You can learn more about our show on our website at amnhelphcare.com and follow us on social media to stay updated on new episodes and the ever-changing world of healthcare. Thank you for being a part of the ElevateCare community. Until next time, keep elevating healthcare and remember that together we can create a brighter, healthier future for all. Special thanks to AMN Healthcare for sponsoring this episode.